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Date:  Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:53:49 +1
From: Anthony Judge
Director, Communications and Research
Union of International Associations



Greetings

I have scanned through your two papers -- sorry I have matters of urgency to get on to.

My quick response relates more to my dissatisfaction with general systems gatherings.

I have no problem with the papers. But with respect to the entropy one, I would have preferred some reference to what might be called conceptual entropy, or comprehension entropy (linking to your second paper). To me GS, like Fuller, is great on tangible systems
-- but then hopes that somehow understanding them will be useful in solving the intangible system issues underlying Kosovo, overpopulation, etc. But that is where the real 'north-south', 'head-feet' gap lies. There is no viable communication between these two systems.

In my recent Kosovo paper http://www.uia.org/uiadocs/mathbom   which I am continuing to update on the web, I have endeavoured to show how a range of disciplines could focus more effectively on such practical matters. The difficulty with GS is that it has become a kind of scientific religion, distinct from other scientific religions, but nevertheless suffering from the same problems that religions have in relating to reality -- supporting Milosevic, designing out
women, etc.

I guess my basic point is what does entropy mean in a person's life, in this present moment -- which relates to your opening quote.The meaning attached to your openning quote is not present in the meaning to be derived in your arguments.

There are all superficial comments. My apologies for any offence or misreading

Best

Tony
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What we need to understand may only be expressible in a language that we do not know
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Thank you, Tony, for taking the time to give me your reactions.

No offense ever taken.

Two points. One, not every paper is going to be so complete as to account for all concerns. In this case, there are other SIGs at the conference dealing with systemic applications regarding people's welfare. These papers of mine are meant to be more clinical in defining process functions ... notions that systems thinkers had a difficult time getting a handle on at last year's gathering. Two, I'm so accustomed to these notions and the natural implications they do have for real people and lives that I probably am deficient on always writing out those connections so everyone can appreciate them too.

Every person is a consortium of many frames of values ... things they are concerned about and try to uphold and prioritize at any moment. Each of these separate but interdependent concern-sets has its own gaussian behavior space ... where shifts in composition of energy and behavior are tantamount
to local entropy changes (variously increasing or decreasing) ... inflows and out flows of energy, with concommitant changes in the ability to perform functions or attain goals.

In the latitude of open behavior spaces, systems push the limits of what they can do, constantly testing where negative feedback kicks in and looking for positive benefits ... that enable and enhance 'survival'. Power cravers like Milosevic will manipulate, coerce and cajole their peers with projected
images of joining in the power game and winning. (Its what Etzioni reductively called "charisma") When you couple that with having at your disposal the combined tools of "weapons that you have no reluctance to use because you don't think anyone can harm you sufficiently in return", with, "people you can bully around, and so lord it over then in any way you see fit because you only value your own gain and couldn't care less whether any potential adversary lives or dies ... to the extent that they inconvenience your own lust for living" ... then all the rest of the factors are only mechanisms for gaining desired ends. They momentarily enable or restrict accomplishing objectives, by establishing connections, making links and opportunities, supplying or draining the power to accomplish, and so on.

Raoul Naroll in "Moral Order"(1974) - his extensive empirical analysis of pre-literate societies - said it very succinctly. Punishments to bad behaviors are only effective when they are timely.   Delay, or even over severity of the punishment only have minimal effect. In the case of over-punishment, the absurdity of proportion of some anticipated recourse numbs the perpetrator. If you charge a pauper some pittance that amount to a reasonable amount he might have in his possession at any moment, he'll give pause to jeopardizing whathe possesses. If a fine amounts to much more than he can even acquire during a reasonable day, or month or year, then it looses and meaning and bearing on his behavior.

Extreme jail time works the same way. At some point a prisoner views the punishment as a gift ... it lets him off the hook of having to provide for himself. So jail in a strange way can be viewed not as a deprivation, but as a gain.

For despots, there are too many ways to win and too few to lose. Especially if you carry no moral empathy for the rest of the world. Especially if your opposition hasn't the courage to put their own welfare on the line in order to put down a killer. The world's nations are too afraid of loosing or diminishing their own possessions, and this war falls into being a game ... with posturing displays but no real threats. Cowardice of conscience.  And very sad, because the weak indeed get their 'christian reward'. "The meek share inherit the earth." ... six feet of it piled up on top of their corpse bodies, unfortunately.

These entropies and forces and motives and actions are all too real in regard to living people and social behaviors, Tony. People who are successful manipulators can't be 'reasoned out of' continuing to manipulate. Only action counts. The world we experience/inherit at any moment isn't the one dreamt of but the one produce by real actions and events. Transmit or forfeit. Accomplish or might as well have never existed.

I see the pain in your heart that your words convey. I don't have a ready salve. Only the resolve of people who loath despots, their supporters and their enablers, can make any real difference. First they have to overcome fear of their own potential losses, the payment for getting the job done. They weigh their behavior and life spaces. They commit only what's safe or convenient or not too taxing. Cocooning and camoflaging are strategies that only work for just so long. And wild arm wavings and throwing random inaccurate pebbles (bombs) are ineffective tricks of pseudo-intimidation.

The flows and swarms of entropies abound everywhere. Everywhere. There is no strictly academic modeling in my ideas. The realities are there if any social/business/political leaders have the courage to act on them.

Do I include spiritual overtones in what I write? Quite probably. The scope of existence isn't simply material dynamics. Do I want it to have the rank of religious artifact? Absolutely not. I want people to be active players in making a kinder more caring world. No more bullshit. No more posturing prevarications. No more self indulgence that degrades other people and possibilities. No more arrogance of 'superiority'. No more. No more.

Jamie

Friday April 23

Well -- further apologies -- I found your reply more meaningful than your papers in enabling dialogue.

My point would be that the understanding we both pursue is not at the point enabling new
forms of action. Our society has become specialized in explaining itself without enabling   change where it is needed. How does one get from understanding systems to acting in new ways within systems of which one is a part? It was my challenge to Bela regarding the ISSS event.

Hence my reference to the real north-south gap, between what the head knows and what the
feet can do!

Best,      Tony

 

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